Following the letter is something my husband wrote shortly after sending the letter, noting the verbal feedback and response from Way leadership.
~*~
[Begin letter]
March 13, 2006
Dear Rev. Rivenbark,
God bless you abundantly in the name of Jesus Christ. I remember part of the prophecy from your installation as Vice-President was "..to heal the stripes of the adversary...". You have taken positive steps since becoming President to begin the healing process, including: (1) stopping the abuse of the "mark and avoid" practice, (2) redirecting the STS teachings to be positive and absent from verbal attacks on any who don't buy into the teaching 100%, and (3) beginning the recognition certificates for faithfulness to the Way International (TWI for short) for both HFC's and believers. The atmosphere within TWI has changed from "you're either with me or against me; there is no middle ground" to a much more tender and welcoming "good to see you and how are you?"
However there are some major issues left over from Rev. Martindale's administration that need to be corrected. The practices (or doctrines) below are at least some of the most significant obstacles to growth and outreach within TWI.
I. Money. The love of it is the root of all evil. However, the management of an individual's money is only between him, God, his/her family, and whomever payments for goods or services are due. The "no debt doctrine" absolutely cannot be documented from the rightly divided Word, and the proof of the error is in the financial hurt caused to most who adhere to it. In the 10 plus years since it became the standard for the Corps, HFC's, and AC students, those who sold homes and began renting have lost both the equity increase from mortgage reductions and property value appreciation. Some folks have suffered losses in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is not a senses-based argument, but a factual-based observation of the impact of practicing wrong doctrine. It is pouring water into a "broken cistern that can hold no water." It is absolutely the individual's responsibility to mange their affairs and not become caught up in the "keeping up with the Jones'" or obtaining more things than they need and can steward. Continuing this no debt standard will lead to more people deciding the cost of compliance is greater than the benefit associated with it.
The second point in this topic is tithing and abundant sharing. The tithe was a Law Adminstration law. In the Patriarchal Administration sacrifices were offered, but the only tithe record is of the singular event of Abraham AFTER the king of Salem (or mayor in our day) gave food and drink to him and his men. The tithe was to support the tribe of Levi. There are no records of tithing in Acts. Absolutely, we are instructed to give to the movement of the Word and support ministers who are worthy of double honor. Those examples are recorded in Acts and the Epistles. In the Old Testament, Levi would have made up about 1/12 of the population; therefore a 10th from the remaining 11 tribes would have provided the priests with equal financial status as their brethren and provided enough for the sacrifices as well.
Tithing is an involved topic, but to teach it is a necessary part of operating the revelation and impartation manifestations is to deny the accomplishments of Jesus Christ and to replace them with the works of the flesh to please God. Tithing is a work of the flesh, while revelation and impartation manifestations are spiritual. God does instruct us to give as we purpose in our hearts to move the Word, but He does not require the tithe to bless us, protect us, or give us access to revelation and operation of the impartation manifestations.
II. Management. In the expansion days of TWI, the household fellowships were to be self-supporting, self-propagating, and self-governing. The self-governing has been replaced by management from Ways Corps following Board of Directors' plans. Local fellowships must submit a calendar to their branch coordinator for approval. (I have no idea what happens once the branch coordinators receive them.) The teaching topics are managed by the overemphasis on the STS and Way Magazine articles. Didn't the teachers do a good enough job the first time? Are the HFC's (who are debt free AC grads) incapable of planning a simple fellowship calendar and knowing what their people need to hear? This calendar and topic managment is absolutely no different than the Southern Baptist Sunday Schools using "quarterlies" to teach their followers. It is an insult to the capabilities of any HFC. If they cannot plan and don't know what needs to be taught, they aren't spiritual enough to oversee a fellowship.
III. Ministering. Since the last Rock of Ages there has not been a summer event open to anyone and everyone to come see the big-picture perspective of TWI. Since the last Word in Business there has not been a national or international conference for anyone other than AC students and grads. Since before the last Rock of Ages no one from the Board of Directors has taught an open fellowship on the field (other than Gunnison) - at least to the best of my knowledge. This isolation of leadership at HQ is: (1) contrary to the pattern established in Acts by Peter and Paul and the other apostles and noted in The New Dynamic Church, and (2) sets up the region visits to HQ as a pilgrimage; something not noted nor established in Acts or Epistles. "Come and see" is not a command for us, but "Go, tell" is a command for us. You and others should travel to teach. Otherwise coupled with the larger issues, TWI will become pockets of followers isolated from their leaders and incapable of sustaining outreach or having any greater impact or meaning than has already been achieved.
My HFC is _________. _______ are the branch coordinators and _________the limb and region coordinators. These people are bright, motivated, love God, and are committed to TWI. I love and respect each of them. They need your help by breaking the bonds that thwart their outreach efforts. They plan events and witness to folks and get some to attend fellowships for a while, but none seem to stick. The question is why. The answer is not them; they are kind and loving. But the answer is what they have to offer is limited. The issues mentioned above are a few of the limitations place on them and other field leadership within TWI. Other ministries are growing, but TWI is shrinking (or if its "membership" is staying about level, it is due to children of Way believers coming of "class" age and not because others are being "won to the ministry").
Other ministries offer Biblical research and classes comparable to (do I dare say better than?) TWI and do not put bonds onto their followers and leaders. Perhaps unbeknownst to you, few followers of TWI are blessed with it. Most tolerate it thinking "there is nothing else better available," all the while hoping things within TWI will change. I do not know how many, if any, such letters have been sent to you. My goal is to offer an outsider's perspective to dramatically improve the funcitoning of TWI "on the field."
Whether you decide to act on this letter is your business. My conscious is now clear. My sufficiency is of God, (not through or by TWI), and I eagerly anticipate His blessings for taking a stand against religion that has crept into and paralyzed the ministry that taught me the Word and how to live it. You are in a unique position to affect change immediately. Due to your position your only boss is God, but your responsibility is to all of TWI. The masses are looking to you for further healing and freedom from the stripes and bondage of the devil brought into TWI by the ego of Craig Martindale. You are the only one today who can bring it to TWI by changing standards that are contrary to the Word.
You have honorably served TWI corporately. Please serve it as honorably spiritually by throwing out the damnable doctrines that have crept in.
Love in Christ,
[signature]
Dear Rev. Rivenbark,
God bless you abundantly in the name of Jesus Christ. I remember part of the prophecy from your installation as Vice-President was "..to heal the stripes of the adversary...". You have taken positive steps since becoming President to begin the healing process, including: (1) stopping the abuse of the "mark and avoid" practice, (2) redirecting the STS teachings to be positive and absent from verbal attacks on any who don't buy into the teaching 100%, and (3) beginning the recognition certificates for faithfulness to the Way International (TWI for short) for both HFC's and believers. The atmosphere within TWI has changed from "you're either with me or against me; there is no middle ground" to a much more tender and welcoming "good to see you and how are you?"
However there are some major issues left over from Rev. Martindale's administration that need to be corrected. The practices (or doctrines) below are at least some of the most significant obstacles to growth and outreach within TWI.
I. Money. The love of it is the root of all evil. However, the management of an individual's money is only between him, God, his/her family, and whomever payments for goods or services are due. The "no debt doctrine" absolutely cannot be documented from the rightly divided Word, and the proof of the error is in the financial hurt caused to most who adhere to it. In the 10 plus years since it became the standard for the Corps, HFC's, and AC students, those who sold homes and began renting have lost both the equity increase from mortgage reductions and property value appreciation. Some folks have suffered losses in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is not a senses-based argument, but a factual-based observation of the impact of practicing wrong doctrine. It is pouring water into a "broken cistern that can hold no water." It is absolutely the individual's responsibility to mange their affairs and not become caught up in the "keeping up with the Jones'" or obtaining more things than they need and can steward. Continuing this no debt standard will lead to more people deciding the cost of compliance is greater than the benefit associated with it.
The second point in this topic is tithing and abundant sharing. The tithe was a Law Adminstration law. In the Patriarchal Administration sacrifices were offered, but the only tithe record is of the singular event of Abraham AFTER the king of Salem (or mayor in our day) gave food and drink to him and his men. The tithe was to support the tribe of Levi. There are no records of tithing in Acts. Absolutely, we are instructed to give to the movement of the Word and support ministers who are worthy of double honor. Those examples are recorded in Acts and the Epistles. In the Old Testament, Levi would have made up about 1/12 of the population; therefore a 10th from the remaining 11 tribes would have provided the priests with equal financial status as their brethren and provided enough for the sacrifices as well.
Tithing is an involved topic, but to teach it is a necessary part of operating the revelation and impartation manifestations is to deny the accomplishments of Jesus Christ and to replace them with the works of the flesh to please God. Tithing is a work of the flesh, while revelation and impartation manifestations are spiritual. God does instruct us to give as we purpose in our hearts to move the Word, but He does not require the tithe to bless us, protect us, or give us access to revelation and operation of the impartation manifestations.
II. Management. In the expansion days of TWI, the household fellowships were to be self-supporting, self-propagating, and self-governing. The self-governing has been replaced by management from Ways Corps following Board of Directors' plans. Local fellowships must submit a calendar to their branch coordinator for approval. (I have no idea what happens once the branch coordinators receive them.) The teaching topics are managed by the overemphasis on the STS and Way Magazine articles. Didn't the teachers do a good enough job the first time? Are the HFC's (who are debt free AC grads) incapable of planning a simple fellowship calendar and knowing what their people need to hear? This calendar and topic managment is absolutely no different than the Southern Baptist Sunday Schools using "quarterlies" to teach their followers. It is an insult to the capabilities of any HFC. If they cannot plan and don't know what needs to be taught, they aren't spiritual enough to oversee a fellowship.
III. Ministering. Since the last Rock of Ages there has not been a summer event open to anyone and everyone to come see the big-picture perspective of TWI. Since the last Word in Business there has not been a national or international conference for anyone other than AC students and grads. Since before the last Rock of Ages no one from the Board of Directors has taught an open fellowship on the field (other than Gunnison) - at least to the best of my knowledge. This isolation of leadership at HQ is: (1) contrary to the pattern established in Acts by Peter and Paul and the other apostles and noted in The New Dynamic Church, and (2) sets up the region visits to HQ as a pilgrimage; something not noted nor established in Acts or Epistles. "Come and see" is not a command for us, but "Go, tell" is a command for us. You and others should travel to teach. Otherwise coupled with the larger issues, TWI will become pockets of followers isolated from their leaders and incapable of sustaining outreach or having any greater impact or meaning than has already been achieved.
My HFC is _________. _______ are the branch coordinators and _________the limb and region coordinators. These people are bright, motivated, love God, and are committed to TWI. I love and respect each of them. They need your help by breaking the bonds that thwart their outreach efforts. They plan events and witness to folks and get some to attend fellowships for a while, but none seem to stick. The question is why. The answer is not them; they are kind and loving. But the answer is what they have to offer is limited. The issues mentioned above are a few of the limitations place on them and other field leadership within TWI. Other ministries are growing, but TWI is shrinking (or if its "membership" is staying about level, it is due to children of Way believers coming of "class" age and not because others are being "won to the ministry").
Other ministries offer Biblical research and classes comparable to (do I dare say better than?) TWI and do not put bonds onto their followers and leaders. Perhaps unbeknownst to you, few followers of TWI are blessed with it. Most tolerate it thinking "there is nothing else better available," all the while hoping things within TWI will change. I do not know how many, if any, such letters have been sent to you. My goal is to offer an outsider's perspective to dramatically improve the funcitoning of TWI "on the field."
Whether you decide to act on this letter is your business. My conscious is now clear. My sufficiency is of God, (not through or by TWI), and I eagerly anticipate His blessings for taking a stand against religion that has crept into and paralyzed the ministry that taught me the Word and how to live it. You are in a unique position to affect change immediately. Due to your position your only boss is God, but your responsibility is to all of TWI. The masses are looking to you for further healing and freedom from the stripes and bondage of the devil brought into TWI by the ego of Craig Martindale. You are the only one today who can bring it to TWI by changing standards that are contrary to the Word.
You have honorably served TWI corporately. Please serve it as honorably spiritually by throwing out the damnable doctrines that have crept in.
Love in Christ,
[signature]
[End letter]
~*~
When my husband mailed the letter to Rivenbark, he also mailed copies to our Region Coordinator (who was also the State Limb Coordinator), our Branch Coordinator, and Household Fellowship Coordinator. He received verbal response/feedback only from the Limb/Region Coordinator. My husband wrote down those verbal responses to have for his personal notes.
His notes state the following:
- 1. The BoD stands by its "no debt" doctrine
- 2. Coordinators have great latitude in planning and teaching. (Well, maybe; I have not been an HFC for three years. Sure seems to be a locked-in situation, though).
- 3. As for giving $ to manifest spiritual power, LC/RC said he's never taught $10 of ABS = $10 of revelation.
- (From him [the Region Coordinator] that is true, but the new foundational class syllabus includes LCM's articles on "The Tithe Doth Still Supply" and "The Spiritual Abundance of Abundant Sharing". So TWI standard doctrine hasn't changed though the LC/RC doesn't seem to agree with it).
- 4. The last RoA was physically dangerous as gang members and other "threats" were admitted to HQ grounds without any screeening or supervision.
- 5. TWI is expanding. Its growth is not dynamic because of splinter groups who attract folks who once would have come to TWI.
I do want to emphasize my treatment from TWI since this letter has been cordial. However, there has been no communication from anyone other than the LC/RC since March 19th. I have not attended a meeting since then. Never a word directly from Rev. Rivenbark.
~*~
38 comments:
I left The Way International in 1988. I don't know why anyone would make it their life mission to straighten out an organization that had long since lost it's "way" spiritually.
Unfortunately, I've seen more crap than I care to think about since 1988 with people bouncing all over the spiritual map. Splinter groups abound.
I guess people just have to have an organization to "feel close to God"
The only thing that really troubles me these days is that people don't know how to sift out that which is good and that which is not.
It's always a "throw the baby out with the bath water" situation.
I still practice God's Word in my life in the same manner I always have. I get answers to prayer. I continue to receive revelation and I see signs, miracles and wonders.
It's an amazing thing. All it takes is simple believing.
God bless you.
Hi Magnolia,
Thanks for taking time to comment.
One of the statements that struck me in your comment is: "I don't know why anyone would make it their life mission to straighten out an organization that had long since lost it's "way" spiritually."
A few thoughts I have regarding your statement.
1) Love and loyalty is one reason folks continue with any group or family or perceived family, hoping that their influence will help steer a group into a more healthful direction. I recall more than one Way leader from the 80s and 90s (some who have since left the org) stating that they couldn't change on organization from the outside.
2) Indoctrination and investment would be a couple other reasons. IMO, these are due (at least in part) to manipulative actions on the part of an organization or an abuser (in the case of one on one relationships).
I imagine you know these reasons and perhaps your statement was simply off-the-cuff.
I don't know if I know anyone who has made it their life mission to straighten out The Way. I speculate there are some Way followers who have this in the back of their minds - some who were around in The Way's heyday and some who have raised their, now adult, children in The Way. "They'll go down with the ship," so to speak.
It sounds like you are satisfied with life and confident in your beliefs. I recall the scriptures stating that Jesus marveled at two things: belief and unbelief. I reckon he'd have a lot to marvel at today. ;-)
Thanks again for commenting.
To life,
~carol
congradulations on seeing the light like you have, i'm sorry to say that i am still involved with TWI have been for over 40 years but am on the edge of jumping. AS I've picked my head up to look around instead of keeping it down at grass level I see the hurt and legalism from this ministry. I am a fellowship co and love having one, the only reason I have not thrown in the towel yet is we want to continue to serve and have not found another avenue yet, but my time is short. what have you all been up to these years in service? I've written a letter and guess i could title it fruit, because the fruit that this place grows is not the word and is not the love of god, i'm not even sure what it does offer any more.
much love in christ
your brother in colorado
This is good that this letter was written. Yaay John!
I did write a short good bye letter via email to the cult leader, but never a detailed letter as John wrote. (we had been members of the group for almost 2 decades.it wasn't the Way Intl, but similar in indoctrination & authoritarian methods/edicts)
I had spoken many times with the leader & it became very apparent that he would not budge an inch in seeing that he could possibly be wrong. It was better to just cut our losses & leave as peaceably as possible.
Before we left that church, I'll never forget being in the pastor's basement office & trying to voice some of my opinions & questioning the pastor's doctrines & such...the pastor leaned back in his chair at his desk, hands clasped behind his head, elbows sticking out as if to make himself appear larger..he glared at us, glibly informed us & I quote, "well....I'VE been building gospel churches for over 25 years..." and I KNEW at that moment, that he would not hear one word we said. We were nothing but peons to him & what we thought did not matter. *sigh* Those were really difficult days...thank God it has gotten easier...over time. So glad to be out of that place!
I was so battered & bruised emotionally & spiritually that I didn't have the fight in me to deal with any more ugly reactions to any disagreements with the leader. ( he yelled at us in his basement, sermon rants directed specifically at us, I had heard enough of "the devil's gotten into you..you need to stop doubting!..etc...") My doubts were of the devil according to the leader...but I don't think so. I think the pastor tried to scare me so that I would not think for myself.
That said, I still think it's great that John had it in him to write that letter! :)
and (Anonymous from Colorado) I wish you the best in exiting the Way...I don't think they are "the way". God gave us freedom. Groups can & do often times become abusive. I wish you the best & I personally believe there is a good life & hope after exiting a controlling group. But it is hard, especially since many times the religion is intertwined with our lives. There will be a void & it's a lot of work to undo the damage & "detox" from the bad stuff. But over time the void lessens & it begins to fill with LOVE, PEACE & acceptance.
Godspeed to you.
Hey April!
Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
John got a lot off his chest with this letter.
I think it's a good letter too, but I confess that I was nervous when he sent it...and I had already stopped fellowshipping with The Way five months prior to him sending the letter.
John was pre-scheduled to teach a Branch meeting when he sent the letter. And he still taught that Branch meeting even after the leadership from the top down had read it, even though the topic was on "abundant sharing." ("Abundant sharing" is the term The Way uses regarding giving beyond the tithe. A Branch is comprised of the various Way home fellowships in a geographical area.)
That was the last Way fellowship John attended.
By the time we exited The Way, the public (and most private) verbal abuse, like you experienced in your group, had subsided. In the 90s, many Way followers received similar treatment as you when they decided to leave.
It's a hard enough decision to leave something to which one has been committed for decades. Then for those who are supposedly pastors (from the word "pasture") to beat them up verbally and reinforce that they are walking away from God, a God who has promised to never leave or forsake, is plain old cruel.
I think the owner of the flock that the shepherd is shepherding would fire such a shepherd for destroying that which the shepherd had been entrusted with.
Yay to life and love and beautiful, open pastures!!
xoxo
~carol :-)
Carol wrote, "It's a hard enough decision to leave something to which one has been committed for decades. Then for those who are supposedly pastors (from the word "pasture") to beat them up verbally and reinforce that they are walking away from God, a God who has promised to never leave or forsake, is plain old cruel."
((((Carol)))) You hit the nail on the head right there!
XXXOOO
April
(The comment below was originally posted as a response on 2/19/11. I am reposting the edited response now. Edited to remove the email address.)
Hi Anonymous,
I've read your comment over a few times. Oh my...wow....
My heart goes out to you. What a HUGE decision process you must be going through. My heart hurts, at least from my perspective, recalling the agony of trying to decide where to turn and what to do when I was in process of deciding. At the same time, I wish I could convey to you in words as to how very much the "body of Christ" resides and is alive beyond The Way, and how much service avails itself for folks with a heart to serve.
I (and later my husband) chose
Christian Family Fellowship (CFF) as our exit route. Other believers in our Fellowship Area trickled out of The Way during that time as well and landed in our home for a time as we all gathered our shattered pieces. Wayne Clapp, and others, from CFF were wonderful in their care for our hearts and lives. There are other places (of course) that you can turn; that was simply ours.
I let my husband know about your comment here. He (and I) would be glad to talk with you via phone, if you'd like.
You can contact me via email at **********. I don't typically put my email on public view, so please write it down somewhere because I will edit this comment once I feel you've had time to record the email address. :-)
Abundant blessings to you. You are in our thoughts and prayers, brother in Colorado...
~carol
PS: Oops...just remembered. You may also find this link helpful.
Cortright Family Fellowship - Colorado Believer's Links (last update January 10, 2011)
You know,
I left TWI in 2005. After a decade. Since then I had the freedom to go into debt to become a nurse and now make triple of what I would have made without it. I also was able to totally pay the school debt off within a year. Something I would never of been able to do while in TWI in the 90's (though to their credit they did relax that policy by 2005). Still, I know someone who also left who was dating an "unbeliever." This person was encouraged to date within the ministry but others in our region who took such advice remained "single" past child baring age, and ultimately to my knowledge many remain single, "waiting." This person did not take TWI's advice, pursued the relationship, and has now been happily married 10 years with two beautiful children. None of which would have happened if this person had listened to TWI leadership.
I don't have anything against TWI. They honestly did help me through a difficult time in the early 90's. The local leadership that was in my area at the time was fantastic. However, as they were replaced someone came in who IMO was very cruel and stunted my growth. Many of the things he wanted me to change were accurate (and I've actually done since I've left). But his approach was cruel, attack oriented, and was trying to run my life without understanding my situation. Had he taken 5 minutes to do any of that he would have been much more in a position to assist me. I remember he once told me I couldn't play music at our local functions because I was two minutes early. It was tradition to be five minutes early. This showed I wasn't organized enough according to this individual. This was partially true, but I didn't learn my organization skills from TWI, I learned it from others ONCE I LEFT. TWI leadership at that time in my particular region did not click with my young 20 something self who was raised in an alcohol, porn, and drug infested atmosphere. The initial group of TWI leadership helped me a great deal and I will always be greatful to God and them for their love and support. The second group of them were almost equally detrimental that the first group was beneficial for me. Still, I choose not to think on my time their as negative. I got a genuine passion for God, and met my future spouse. I came out OK. Plus, all the things they rightly wanted me to change (not the things they wrongly wanted me to change) I was actually better able to do once I left TWI.
If you want to get out without incident I followed advice from former TWI minister Rev. Masquida. Start giving up your positions of authority first. Let them know you need to work on your family (which is actually true if your going to leave, you need to transition), next slowly fade away. Finally, don't show up, give them a letter if you need to, or tell them face to face. Your choice. I just drifted off. Though by not being straight forward I was unable to totally break free for two years. If your in a position of power and want to have the least amount of impact to your followers, and just want to leave yourself, the slow fade into the night might work out.
God Bless you all,
M
P.S. There is still a small amount of apprehension and fear I have toward TWI which is why I won't leave my name here.
Hey M,
Thank you for stopping by and sharing a snippet of your story. Wonderful to read that you were able to go to school, get your degree, and (it sounds like) to live at least one of your dreams. Yay! :)
Interesting comment regarding Rev. Mosqueda's advice. A few years before we left, my husband and I we had given up our leadership positions, at that time not planning to leave The Way, but rather just getting out from under some pressure. That did make it easier to leave(though it still wasn't easy from an emotional/mental/spiritual standpoint.
For any readers, here are two links to an article written by Paul and Bev Mosqueda.
1) Waydale Archive: How to Extricate Yourself: A Guide To Liberty
2) GreaseSpot Cafe Waydale Documents: How to Extricate Yourself: A Guide To Liberty
The article is a bit dated. It apparently first appeared on Waydale around the year 2000. The Way is different now (in 2012) than from the year 2000; it is less regimented now than in the Martindale daze.
When I left in 2005, The Way had become a deadened denomination. At that time, I described it as a flat tortilla shell; it had little substance. IMO, it became a whited sepulchre. [If interested, here is a link to a narrative about my journey into and out of The Way:
Seeking: Life Along The Way. It's rather long, so I divided it into 3 parts.]
I think people who want to leave The Way take various courses to do so, depending on a number of factors such as how long they have been involved, if they have family that is involved, are they dealing with personal or health challenges, if they have a good relationship with their local leadership, if they have close friends standing with The Way, and probably quite a few other "ifs" and "depending ons."
Regardless, I hope folks who are not happy in The Way are able to find their way out and discover that life outside "the walls of Zion" holds a vast array of freedom and opportunity. It they desire to continue with Christianity, they will discover that the "household of God" is not limited to The Way International.
Thanks again for sharing M!
To life,
~Carol
Wow, if you cannot just leave,you need to break the spirit of bondage that is keeping you. All you should have to do is to put one foot in front of the other and WALK AWAY. Change your phone number if necessary. And believe that God is still with you wherever you go, that is what the Bible says. If you cannot do that, then that is not normal. God gave you free will. Trust your gut. Be courageous. Fear not, only believe.
Hey Anonymous,
When I initially read your comment, it gave me a chuckle. My husband (the author of the letter to Rivenbark) and myself (the owner of this blog) left The Way in 2006 and 2005 respectively, after decades of loyalty.
After re-reading your comment and on a serious note, I am a bit confused to whom you are addressing in your comment.
I assume when you state "you" in your comment that you are addressing people who are still involved with The Way and are wanting to leave but finding it difficult?
I assume this because the letter in this blog was written in 2006 and the author of the letter (my husband) parted with The Way shortly after this letter was mailed to Rivenbark and the local Way leadership at the time.
If you are addressing folks still involved with The Way and desiring to leave, I'm sure they would take you up on your suggestion...if leaving were as simple as you say.
Yet, each individual's situation is unique for that individual. The follower may be a decades-loyal disciple; walking away is a hard thing after decades of loyalty. They may have family involved how want to remain with The Way; the follower then may be concerned that by leaving their action would split their family. The follower may have a deep-held belief that The Way is the true Household of God and if they leave they will end up in the clutches of the adversary. They may have other fears that are not so easily overcome by being told to trust God...especially if the person equates trusting God with their loyalty to "the Ministry."
Leaving an organization which a person has held dear and has been committed to is similar to a divorce (at least from an emotional/spiritual/commitment standpoint). It's complex.
And perhaps you know all that already.
Take care!
To life,
~Carol (oneperson)
"Truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:3 NKJV)
I believe the Lord sent me to the Way Ministry several decades ago to deliver me from a way of coping that would end up leveling loved ones on both sides of my family. I learned enough about the love and power of God in that ministry to overcome that problem and to have a fairly abundant life also. For this I will always be thankful! I had a wonderful time fellowshipping with the Father and with fellow believers.
And about halfway into my 7 year stay at The Way I couldn’t help wanting to fellowship with His Son also. So I did. After all, the Lord Jesus Christ isn’t just a figurehead, is he? Isn’t he our literal spiritual head who’s resurrected life expanded to the point where it fills each one of us who make up his spiritual body – like an acorn’s life expands into oak tree? Anyway, the Apostle Paul said that his first love letter to the Corinthians was written “to … all who in every place call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours” (1 Cor. 1:2 NKJV). So I thought I would join in the fun. I began to “call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.”
But the predominant response I got from leadership was quite similar to what Paul used to do to people when his name was Saul. Remember when the Lord Jesus sent Ananias to heal him and get him born again? (The reason I perceive this Lord to be Jesus is because Ananias told Saul, “the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road as you came has sent me…” (Acts 9:17)). Ananias’ response was, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to BIND ALL CALL ON YOUR NAME” (verses 13 and 14). Way leadership didn’t exactly bind me and throw me in jail like Saul used to do, but they did do their best to silence me. So after a few years, I thought I’d better move on. And I did.
I had to later ask myself why they did not want me to “call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.” And this is what I came up with. They wanted to replace Jesus Christ as Lord of his Church. I now see that all Christians are instructed to “[crucify] the flesh with its passions and desires” (Galatians 5:24). And when we don’t begin this process, we keep strengthening a universal “pecking order” where people “lord it over" each other (Matt. 20:25). And as much as I loved Way leadership, I saw that they became as great a “Household of Lords” as any other denomination. And they did it the way that I'm seeing that all dysfunctional families oppress their households – they forbade us to trust our own perceptions. I know a young man who almost went crazy as a child and young adult when his mother told him, “Don’t you know you can’t think?” And as much as I loved the Way’s founder, I see that he virtually said the same thing when he told us that the first key to biblical research is for us not to trust our own perceptions. He used that scripture, “knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation” (2 Peter 1:20).
But E.W. Bullinger said that the words, “private interpretation,” actually mean “self-originated.” The NKJV agrees in a footnote which says the word “interpretation” should be “origin.” They both say that this verse is talking about the "origin" of prophetic scripture rather than its "interpretation" or "perception."
I think that the more we begin to give ourselves permission to love the Lord our God with all our “minds” (Matt. 22:37) as well as those other areas, and the more that we let Jesus be our Lord, that one man “mediator between God and men” (1 Tim. 2:5), the more we will be able to transform from households of Lords to households of genuine servants.
I thank God through Jesus Christ for you all!
Hi lastadamsfriend,
Thank you for your heart-felt and deeply thought-through comment.
I was not aware of that regarding Bullinger. Thanks for sharing. I utilized Bullinger regularly in my Word-working study days. I imagine I even read what you stated, but it was all filtered though my Way-daze perceptions.
Wonderful insight regarding being taught to not trust our own perceptions. I know other groups do this too basing their take(s) on their various doctrines (whether from New Age "truths" or biblical scriptures).
You stated: "Way leadership didn’t exactly bind me and throw me in jail like Saul used to do, but they did do their best to silence me." So true...that silencing which can issue in grave self-doubt. I've termed what The Way and other toxic groups/belief systems exact as "soul murder," or "soul suicide."
I'm currently reading a book, *People of the Lie* written by M. Scott Peck. There are some intriguing quotes in the book regarding this type of what I've called "soul murder." It really is a prison and not an easy one for people to escape.
When I'm back at my book and have the time, I'll try to remember to see if I can find Peck's thought snippets and post the quotes here in a comment.
[*cringe* regarding your sharing about the statement the mother made to the child. It's child abuse...but no physical scars are seen. It can be so hard to overcome that type of beating.)
"Households of Lords"...what a apt and poignant way to put it.
Thank you for sharing!
~Carol
Hello Carol,
Thank you for your kind words. I have just recently come in contact with your blog (if that’s the correct word for this venue) and have begun to read your thoughts on these matters, and see that you also seek the deep things of God. Glad to meet you!
I think that the Church universal’s finest hour is before us rather than behind us. What I see is that as we collectively and aggressively engage in crucifying our fleshly ways of coping, that we will see a great season of resurrection (or fruit-of-the-spirit-charged-regeneration) prior to our corporate ascension, otherwise know as the gathering together. As a matter of fact, it seems to me like this is what Christ is waiting for.
I like what you said about this war being waged against our souls. To me, “soul murder” could be what people do to others. And “soul suicide” is what we do to ourselves, as we “cry ‘uncle’” and agree with them. I find that people who attempt “bodily suicide” have usually already committed “soul suicide” some time before.
And what I find helpful in combating, well, both kinds actually, is to, with much practice, learn how to love praise from God more than praise from each other. As you’ll recall, that pretty big number of Jewish rulers who believed in Jesus all committed “soul suicide” when the Pharisees threatened to throw them out of the Temple. This “Household of Lords,” if you will, was able to commit “soul murder” because their prey “loved praise from men more than praise from God” (John 12:42-43 NIV). But as we switch loyalties here, we can develop an inner core that cannot be crushed. And we all can escape that prison. And then, when spiritually fortified, help others to do the same.
Oh, yeah, I found that “self-originated” info in the *Companion Bible,* as you probably already guessed. That book, *People of the Lie,* sounds like a good one. I think I’ll get that one myself. Thank you for telling me about it. And for everything else you’ve shared.
--Bill
I need your opinion about some things I wrote and also need to clarify some something. My mind got to racing a bit and I see things got a little confusing. So I’ll slow down. When you speak of “soul suicide,” does the account of the rulers who believed in Jesus but who were too afraid to confess him for fear of the Pharisees throwing them out of the synagogue (which I had mistakenly called the Temple), illustrate what you are saying? Is that “soul suicide”? And do the Pharisees’ threats illustrate “soul murder”? (I’m trying to get the right picture. Thanks) And since it appears that these rulers who were too scared to voice their own TRUE perceptions about Jesus found themselves in their “mental prison” because “they loved the praise from men more than praise from God” (John 12:42-43 NIV), does the thought of training their minds to love the praise from God more than praise from men seem to you like it would help them escape from this prison? And do you think that this training would help those who are in the mental prisons you talked about today also escape? Thanks.
Hey again Bill!
[At the moment, my blog seems to be having trouble with accepting comments over a certain amount of characters. (grrr) So I'm dividing my comment into parts, but they should be read as a whole... not parts. (double grrr)]
PART 1:
You didn't come across confusing to me. But thank you for being considerate and further explaining and asking your questions. :-)
I too may need to clarify that I no longer believe the Bible to be the inerrant God-breathed word. For me currently, the Bible is a book among many written by men and women from the past - humans trying to make sense of the times in which they lived. When I read the scriptures these days, I typically read them more as literature and no more inspired than other literature where men and women seek life understanding and/or observe this amazing journey of discovery.
If I decide at some point to come back to (?) or continue with (?) biblical belief, I will most likely lean toward the Christian Universalist interpretation; that is that if Jesus was/is the redeemer of mankind, every single person will ultimately receive the gift that redeemer earned. (I use the mid-sentence question marks in parenthesis above to indicate that I'm just not sure; I may never be sure in this mortal life.)
(Continued in PART 2)
PART 2:
When I left The Way in 2005, I was an empty shell. I no longer knew who Carol was. At the time I thought my emptiness was due a lack of authentic genuine "fellowship" with my heavenly Father and with his body of believers.
As I read and read and read...and wrote and wrote and wrote...and prayed and prayed and prayed....and communicated with others...and allowed life to unfold instead of "believing" for answers to prayer....and learned better how to accept life as it is... and as I observed the patterns and serendipities of what appeared-could-be "answered prayer" .... I began to realize that what I was missing and what I was seeking were not fellowship with "the Father" and His family on earth..but rather fellowship with my own soul.
Who was this soul? What were her likes and dislikes as opposed to what she should like/dislike according to a doctrine? What were her thoughts and perspectives, her emotions, her opinions, her feelings, her desires, without a doctrine dictating her every thought and breath? In that sense, I had allowed my soul to be murdered - murdered by a doctrine. By "crucifying the old man"...I had engaged in the murder of my own soul...thus a soul suicide.
I think that's why I use both terms. As you touched upon in your explanation, it was like a step process (though my perspective is a bit different due to my unbelief in an authoritative written doctrine). I do hold some (most?) responsibility for my choices. On the other hand, certain "Household Lords" (I really like that term of yours) also hold responsibility for traps set to ensnare people (I am a people) who are at vulnerable life stages. The individual is sacrificed for the sake of the doctrine or organization. People are/were used as and become merchandise.
I agree with you in the sense that humans loved the praise of men more than the praise from God. But for me, I think loving praise in an unhealthy manner (regardless of where that praise originates) causes imprisonment. Then again...as humans we do need love from others, which includes praise and appreciation. Hopefully as we mature, we learn a balance of healthy self- love and other-love in our relationships. And therein, I think one can find freedom. Then there is the whole subject of nurture/nature/disposition/ etc. that comes into play regarding individual needs. (The subject of praise in regard to human need is not a scriptural topic for me, so i don't approach it from a scriptural point of view.)
I hope some of that makes some sense and is maybe bit clearer than mud. ;)
You stated: "I find that people who attempt “bodily suicide” have usually already committed “soul suicide” some time before." I imagine you are probably correct on that one.
Yes, this online format is a blog. Some time back I looked up the history of online blogs. It was interesting. I think the term "blog" comes from web-log, and someone played with that web-log to make it "we blog" ... thus the term "blog."
*People of the Lie* is written with a scriptural perspective; at the time of writing the book, the author was a Christian. (Here is a link to a bit about the author who died in 2005. You'll have to copy and paste the link.)
http://www.theguardian.com/news/2005/oct/05/guardianobituaries.booksobituaries
Thanks again Bill! :-)
Hey again Bill... :-)
Following are a few excerpts from that book *People of the Lie* by M. Scott Peck.
****
"...Evil is the opposition to life. It is that which opposes the life force. It has, in short, to do with killing. Specifically, it has to do with murder--namely, unnecessary killing, killing that is not required for biological survival.
.....When I say evil has to do with killing, I do not mean to restrict myself to corporeal murder. Evil is also that which kills spirit.There are various essential attributes to life -- such as sentience, mobility, awareness, growth, autonomy, will. It is possible to kill or attempt to kill one of those attributes without actually destroying the body. Thus we may 'break' a horse or even a child without ever harming a hair on its head. Erich Fromm was acutely sensitive to this fact when he broadened the definition of necrophilia to include the desire of certain people to control others -- to make them controllable, to foster their dependency, to discourage their capacity to think for themselves, to diminish their unpredictability and originality, to keep them inline. Distinguishing it from a 'biophilic' person, one who appreciates and fosters the variety of life forms and the uniqueness of the the individual, he demonstrated a a 'necrophilic character type,' whose aim it is to avoid the inconvenience of life by transforming others into obedient automatons, robbing them of their humanity.
Evil, for the moment, is that force, residing inside or outside human beings that seeks to kill life or liveliness. And goodness is its opposite. Goodness is that which promotes life and liveliness."
****
"Evil was defined as the use of power to destroy the spiritual growth of others for the purpose of defending and preserving the integrity of our own sick selves. In short, it is scapegoating. We scapegoat not the strong, but the weak. For the evil to misuse their power, they must have the power to use in the first place. They must have some kind of dominion over their victims."
****
Hi Carol,
This is very good information. I can understand why you might not think the Bible to be "God-breathed," when your dominant memories of Bible teachers are of those who have abused you this way. Like you, I am recovering from "soul suicide" which was partially caused by similar spiritual abuse. I was actually already dead in my soul from events that took place in childhood, many years before I was in The Way. Yet I am very convinced that I had an encounter with Jesus Christ at about halfway through my 7-year stay in The Way that demonstrates his superiority over this kind of abuse and control. I was actually supposed to have died at the hands of one very big time abuser but walked away without a scratch. I saw this as a very big miracle. I'll tell you more it later. I am endeavoring to get to know this Jesus again. I was actually away from him for too long, trying to fit in with everybody else's group for all these years. I know you were taught for probably 30 years that Jesus is the "absent Christ," rather than "Christ who is our life." So I can understand why a relationship with him would not sound not very appealing. It was against the law (or grace or whatever) to have the head of the Body anywhere but at the tail end of your prayers. Had I not had this life affirming encounter, I could very well not want to have much to do with him either.
-- Bill
A day I must learn to appreciate.
I’d been gone from The Way maybe 8 or 10 years. It must have been somewhere in the mid nineties. I had left with John Lynn and John Shoenheit and their group. And differing thoughts about the Holy Spirit field were starting to pop up. So Leadership invited those with differing views to a public debate in a local mall to air our views. Well someone who had come to view the Holy Spirit as a third person got the morning slot to debate John Shoenheit. And I got the afternoon slot to debate John Lynn. My differing view concerned the concept of the “gift of holy spirit.”
I had come around to see that there is only one “gift” of holy spirit connecting heaven to earth– rather than one per person and that this “one spirit” we all drink from and are baptized by proceeds from one incorruptible seed, rather than one per person. And that this incorruptible seed none other than the Lord Jesus Christ himself, whose flesh did not see corruption in that grave where he was planted as the seed that would bear much fruit. So I gave my new view and documented my reasons for coming to this conclusion. John Lynn gave his Way Ministry version rebuttal and then I responded. Then we went home. And that was it. We never talked about this again. I had changed John Shoenheit’s mind somewhat because he referred to Christ as the incorruptible seed in a letter he wrote not long afterwards. But because they severed relations with “the Holy Spirit is a Third Person” crowd and were pretty harsh about it, I started wondering when I would be next. (I can’t help from thinking outside of the box.) So I parted ways with the two John’s. And I’ve had bad feelings about this ever since.
But I don’t think these bad feelings need to continue. I am now a denomination of one, a grain of salt in no one else’s salt shaker. And I like spending time with others who have also left theirs. Maybe this is what Christ has been after all along. People who think for themselves.
Glad you liked the excerpts. :-)
You stated: "I can understand why you might not think the Bible to be "God-breathed," when your dominant memories of Bible teachers are of those who have abused you this way." Actually, my dominant memories of Way Bible teachers are, believe or not, warm rather than cruel. I touch upon that in a narrative I wrote regarding the "spiritual journey." I also write about that aspect more in memoir snippets hither and yon.
The "absent Christ"...yes, a quote from Wierwille regarding the "absent Christ" probably still continues in The Way. I always took it to mean that Christ isn't on earth physically, so we as believers are His body. That said, yes, The Way very much took (takes) Jesus Christ out of the equation when it came to (comes to) a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. In the latter years of my Way involvement, (like others) I too questioned and investigated a relationship with the Son as well as the Father. Even though I have grave issues regarding Wierwille, two of my past favorite books regarding the life of Jesus are *JC Our Promised Seed* and *JC Our Passover.*
It's not that a personal relationship with a possible resurrected redeemer is necessarily unappealing...it simply is not of interest to me at this time in my life. Maybe I don't feel a need for it and/or that things are well with my soul as is. (Not saying that folks who choose to have that relationship are needy....it's simply a matter of choices and perspectives and beliefs.)
Oh my regarding the trauma you endured. So glad you were able to walk away with your life. And it sounds like much healing has taken place regarding the trauma. <3
******
Thanks for sharing your 'day you must learn to appreciate'! Interesting about the open debate. I can see and hear both Johns in my minds' eye. Your statement: "So I parted ways with the two Johns." cause me a chuckle.
Yeah...bad feelings. They can be good teachers. I'm all for thinking for ourselves. :-)
On a different note: on my blog sidebar, I used to have a section entitled "Connections: Beyond the Way" which linked to sites that could direct folks leaving The Way to splinter groups or to other folks who have left The Way. About 6ish weeks ago, I took that section off public view. Dialoging with you and with a couple other ex-Way folks in the past month or so has prompted me to adjust that section and make it public again. Folks are still leaving The Way; splinter groups can provide a stepping stone.
Thanks again for sharing Bill!
To life! :-)
I just now got a chance to read Scott Peck’s obituary. I knew his name sounded familiar. He wrote The Road Less Traveled. He does have some very good insight on evil, I must say. At the same time, like Wierwille needed to do but never did, I see that he really needed to crucify his adulterous ways before ascending too far in Christian leadership. I believe that this greatly diminished their ability to truly serve those whom they both actually started off wanting to help.
The little boy who later on met Jesus
I know. I know. I know. If you want to start your own cult, your foundation must be some supernatural experience. It’s got to be a snow storm in July, or finding golden plates on a hill—what ever. I mean, it’s a given. It must be based on the supernatural.
But this is not the purpose of my story. In fact, I’ll be the first to tar and feather anyone who would want to follow me this way. (Oh no! Where’d everybody go? Just kidding.) My purpose here is to point the way to the man whom I believe wants to lead us to maximum freedom – the Lord Jesus Christ!
Carol, I was the little boy whose [step] mother said, “Don’t you know you can’t think?” I was nine at the time. That declaration came on the heals of the overkill she administered to me for making some simple childhood mistake. But so as not to point her out to be the devil made flesh, I must admit that later on that year I took my pain out on my best friend at camp when I beat him up. My step mother and I were both “hurt people [who] hurt people,” as Sandra Wilson so apply put it. And as I see it, Christ’s main mission is to put an end to this tyrannical trend and to administer maximum healing and transformation.
My mind froze. I became very uncoordinated. Was kept on the bench. Got drunk without having to take a drink. Couldn’t study while SHE was still awake. “I know. I’ll set the alarm for midnight.” Not safe to have friends over. Excruciating pain. Rats gnawing on my brain. Giant nut cracker squeezing it into. Mind fragmenting into disjointed pieces.
Medicine would later help my depression but still left me feeling like a zombie. Then I heard about God’s power. So I stopped taking the meds. But fell into suicidal depression. Fantasized about death: My next conscious moment will be seeing Jesus face to face. The rats will all be gone. The nut cracker will be gone. I’m so happy. Will end it all right now.
Tried but failed. Tried again but failed. Kept getting bolder. Third time’s a charm—right? Then just as I was administering the dose, some thought entered my mind about Jesus rewarding me for overcoming. Thought about it a minute. Then I said to him, “Hmm? Maybe I should get a few rewards before I see you, Jesus.” Then I spit it out. And that very moment , this risen savior drove those rats and that nut cracker out of my brain – never to return! And my thoughts have been mending -- stage by stage – ever since.
Carol, this is why I can’t leave Jesus. And why I confess him every chance I get. And why I believe that at this very moment he can be “the power of God and the wisdom of God” in your life too if you’ll let him. If you could, just give it some thought. Thanks.
~ Bill
Re Peck, before obtaining my recent copy of *people of the lie* I read up a bit on Peck. I wasn't surprised that he had somewhat of a cult-like following. Still, the book intrigued my in my continued self-study regarding humanity, sociology, psychopathy, etc.
Re Wierwille - I highly question if his beginning motives were altruistic. Perhaps they were, at least when he was in high school.
*****
Re your story snippet. Oh my...I got teary-eyed. You share it so well; the descriptions of the mental/emotional/spiritual torment communicate clearly. I'm sure folks who have been through similar really resonate with your descriptions. (I know they resonate with me.)
Thank you for the offer regarding allowing Jesus to be the power and wisdom of God in my life. From your sharings thus far, I believe your offer is genuine from a heart of goodness. But...at this point...I still decline. :-) Maybe I'll expand more later as to some of my thoughts... and maybe not. (Just depends on where I want to put my writing energy.)
Side note: I shared your term "Household of Lords" with my husband. He too was taken by it...such an excellent description. I will probably share the term with some folks I'm getting together with next week. One of those folk I just reconnected with this past week; she left The Way only a little over a year ago....after 30+ years of loyalty. Folks are still leaving the "Household of Lords." I rejoice at her freedom. <3
Thanks again Bll!
To life!
:-)
Re Household of Lords. I'm glad you like that term. Actually it came to me while writing you. I first thought of that admonition Jesus gave us to stop to lording it over each other and start serving each other, wanting to communicate how The Way had greatly gravitated toward the former. Then I worded it figuratively as the House of Lords, that governing body within the British Parliament. But after reading over what I had written, "House" suddenly expanded to "Household," which of course is that term of endearment given to us to dissuade us from ever questioning what we were taught. Of course, only like-minded believers could belong to the "household of God." And the threat of being thrown out became the electrically charged fence that shocked us into staying for so long. That's how it became "Household of Lords."
Re Peck, I actually didn't know anything about his adultery until I read his obituary. Maybe that's an updated article. I don't know. This is why I don't want to be overly critical of Wierwille. Critical, yes? But damn him to hell? Not quite there yet. Yes, he screwed up terribly. Many lives were wrecked. Yet like your discovering all the helpful words to your soul that Scott Peck wrote, it was Wierwille's teaching on recieving rewards after being saved, that caused me to think during that crucial minute about the rewards Jesus promised to those who overcome adversity. That specific word helped me to choose life over death, increasing my longevity an extra 30 plus years. For that I will always be thankful.
My natural response to relationship wounds to reject everything that reminds me of that abuser. You know, throw the baby out with the bath water? But I now subscribed to the admonition: "Eat the fish and throw away the bones."
I sure hope that glimpse into my past will be helpful to others.
And thank you very much for all you have shared. I very much like what you've shared about getting to know you. And about pursuing the desires that really make you you. Good stuff. Thanks!
Also it was very interesting what you were saying about blogs. Its fun to play with words like that. Speaking of blogs, it seems to be a very small world. Evan Williams, the founder of this quite enjoyable means of communication, is my good friend, Chris' daughter-in-law's brother. Isn't that somethin'?
For some reason I'm not able to send messages. Tried several times. Wonder what I could be doing wrong?
Thanks for sharing the thought-development-to-words for "Household of Lords." Fun how our minds segue...can be quite entertaining and inventive.
The British House of Lords' seesions can be entertaining to watch on C-Span. ;-)
Re Peck & Wierwille & sins of humans in general...I imagine you and most would agree it's the cover-up and lying and scapegoating that make a wrong doing into more crazy-making. And when it's a pattern of behavior...well...it's then difficult to believe anything said scapegoater might come up with.
If there is a day of judgement/recompense/whatever...I imagine all of us will be in for some surprises.
I think your natural response to trigger(s) from past abuse(s) triggers is (like you say) a natural response. It takes some cognitive work to regulate those responses...and it takes time. At least that's been the case for me.
Thanks for the kudos...and you're welcome. Thank you too for sharing!
Cool about your friend Chris' daughter-in-law's brother being Even Williams. *thumbsup* :-)
Hell, Michigan...brings to mind Normal, Illinois. *chuckle* (Where'd that Hell comment go? lol )
Do you mean you tried to comment and the comment wouldn't come through? If so...I have no idea why. These blogs are provided free of charge for the world, and sometimes they do things I don't understand. Sometimes the glitches fix themselves (figure of speech)...and sometimes not.
Since you have shared a bit of your story, I'll direct you to some other posts on toss & ripple where I have shared my story (or rather bits of it). The narrative is divided into 3 parts (4 if one counts the wellness link...which is very much part of the story). It's rather long and boring...but in case you are interested...I'll post the link to Part 1 below. Parts 2 and 3 and the Addendum can be accessed from the all three Parts.
Seeking: Life Along The Way [Part 1]
Thanks Bill! :-)
Sometimes I say a more than I need to. I kind of thought this was the case when I brought up Hell, Michigan. So I deleted it. Maybe I didn't need to after all.
Actually I noticed your blog provides access to private messages but have yet to be successful at sending any. I tried to utilize my Google account but to no avail. How can do this?
Yeah, I know in my head that my stepmother and ministry leadership, who insist that I not trust my own perceptions, are not the real enemy, for they too were oppressed by forces beyond their own control. For instance, these spiritual foes tried to get my stepmother's first husband to kill her before he killed himself: Murder/suicide. So she lashed out at me. And the organized church forbade Wierwille from thinking for himself, causing his life to spiral out of control. His response was, "Never again!" and he set out to control everybody and everything around him, concocting a 'biblical" reason to keep us from thinking for ourselves.
And what did I do? Beat up my best friend at camp and later on while witnessing I blurted out, "I don't care what you think!"
And that friend from camp who did not like the sport of boxing at all went on to be boxing champ of his school by putting my face on all his opponents. Those poor fellows never stood a chance.
So Carol, are you starting to see that people are not our real enemies anymore than I am to those I hurt? Do you see that maybe our true war is against those forces that have turned us into one big shish kabob and are chowing down as we speak?
"...one big shish kabob and are chowing down as we speak."
That's a great mind picture. I hope I don't give the powers that be that much power over me. But perhaps I live in a delusion or with rose-tinted glasses.
Your questions regarding "people not being our real enemies anymore than those we hurt" and regarding that "maybe our true war is against forces..." caused me pause. I typically don't think in those terms; ie: enemies and war and such. I don't think of life as a battle to be won or enemies to overcome.
I did ponder the questions a bit..and thought that maybe our greatest enemy (or at least one of them) would be arrogance. Something (I think) that we each have to deal with...within ourselves as well as in others.
Your questions also brought to mind an online excerpt from a book entitled "Them & Us: Cult Thinking and the Terrorist Threat." The excerpt came to mind as I pondered the thought of my fellow man as my enemy and that if I view my fellow man as my enemy, then I erect an us/them mentality shutting down communication and then we get pretty much nowhere. Here's link to the excerpt from that book, though I've never read the book.
Them and Us: Cult Thinking and the Terrorist Threat
No prob on the hell comment nor on the deletion. I understand. :-)
Re the abuses/mistreatments us humans exact and endure...one lives long enough and learns that, sadly, abuses are part of life. Hopefully we learn what to do about it to help stop or curb the cycle within our circles of influence...however small those circles may seem.
I know what you mean about viewing this life of ours as if it does not not include us being at war with the devil. We were taught that we are in some sort of athletic contest with the fellow. That we're "Athletes of the Spirit." That the weapons of our warfare are really athletic equipment. You know, the sword of the spirit is really a javelin or something. Maybe a football. That's it -- a football. And that we're Peyton Manning and the devil is Tom Brady (or vise versa) and that at the end of the game we can actually compliment the fine fellow for playing such a stellar game, shake his hand and wish him the best of luck.
But doesn't reality paint a picture of a roaring (intimidating) lion seeking prey to devour? Defeat, despair, nervous breakdowns,suicide, AIDS, -- I could go on and on -- have leveled loved ones and loved ones of loved ones all around.
I must admit, "checking out" and staying checked out sounds very tempting when faced with this human suffering. Hoops any one? But Jesus learned [to check in] through what he suffered. That's what that word, "obedience" really means -- "to listen and obey" (Heb. 5:8). He "checked in" to detect what his "head" (the Father) was actually showing him in his crucial hour(s). And I am learning to "check in" to what my "head" has to say during my own tough times, "bringing into captivity every thought to make it ["check in to" or "listen to and obey"] Christ" (2 Cor. 10:5).
Sure, there has been a lion on my tail, seeking to devour me at many a turn. Same with you in similar but different ways. (Sure glad it wasn't at every turn.) But I now have the Lion of Judah inside of me, that Lion of Lions, who said he'd love me and "manifest" himself to me (John 14:21), whose mission is to "destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8) and to show us both how to help. Talk about a cat fight. This sounds like war to me, dear friend. And a war we were created to win (even after losing several previous battles). Are you game? I mean, are you ready to fight?
Carol, think of how the devil and his principalities and powers have destroyed many a family, the fabric of human society. Divorce is all over the place. When that happens, hearts are ripped into. The image of God is both male and female, but self-contempt seems to be at an all time high. Men can't stand themselves and are being driven to cut off their member and to grow boobs, while Chastity (now Chaz) removes her boobs and grows that very member, and sports quite a beard. What's next, marrying our dogs and cats?
Hey Bill...
Well...I don't believe in a spiritual battle or spiritual athletic competition. So I'll decline the game for now. As far as fighting in this life; I do my best when life calls for such according to the energy and strength I have at that moment.
But instead of battling and fighting, I much prefer to dance or hike...figuratively and literally. (And the dancing has nothing to do with Martindale's *Athletes of the Spirit.*)
That said, I am not naive to the sufferings of life. And there are also joys, of course.
To quote a scripture:
"There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens:
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.
As far as Chaz...good for him. I trust he treats his fellow human with kindness and respect.
I have no idea if self-contempt is at an all-time high. Mankind has a long history, most of which is not recorded. Maybe we just hear about sufferings more now due to this information-overload age....and due to what makes the news.
To life!
Actually this type conversation is something I longed for while growing up and while in The Way. But mainly what I got was others insisting on thinking for me. I now very much like it when Johnny Jump up, Maggy Muggins and Henry Baloko give their perspective on life's matters. Because it seems we all "know in part," and we all have blind spots and we all have areas where we could even be dead wrong, like when I thought it best to end it all. Yet I think we are also more capable of "self-government" than those constructing Households of Lords will dare to admit.
And since I currently still subscribe to the belief that the Bible is the inerrant "God-breathed" Word, and that those of us who read it only "know [it] in part," I also very much respect your differing thoughts on this matter, Carol. And I fully encourage those who may think the way I do on this matter to consider that the Lord Jesus doesn't just want to talk to the Apostle Paul (2 Cor. 13:3 & Galatians 1:12) or Victor Paul or Pope John Paul, but that "Jesus Christ is in you" too (2 Cor. 13:5) and I encourage you learn what you are led to from other Bible teachers but eventually to leave your father and mother in the word and cleave unto your own personal relationship with Christ and become "one with him in spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17 NIV). And for goodness sake, please learn to think for yourself. Carol and I are endeavoring to do this. Thank you. And thank you Carol for letting me share my current thoughts on this matter.
To life! I like that.
That scripture Solomon wrote pretty much covers everything, doesn't it? I too like it when it's time to dance. I just wish I was better at remembering dance moves. :-)
You're welcome! Thank you!
Ha on the dance moves. :-)
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